Fire and Hemlock
12 journalers for this copy...
Finally found another copy! My own one is PC, as it's a signed hardcover.
I'm not using the "teens" category for this book, as it's one of the most complex, intelligent books I've ever read, and I'd hate anyone not to give it a second look, thinking it's "just for kids". The story is loosely based on the folk-ballad Tam Lin, along with contributions from Thomas the Rhymer, the Odyssey (edited 9/04 to add: I just finished writing an essay on the Odyssey and Fire and Hemlock, and sticking to the word limit nearly killed me!), the story of Cupid and Psyche, and just about every other fairy tale and myth known to man, woman and child. And a few other bits and bobs! The references are used so creatively and woven together so skilfully though, that missing any number still leaves you with a great story.
Read it, unless you can't stand any degree of complexity in a book, in which case you should probably look elsewhere. I'll be happy to help out with the ending if needed. If all this isn't enough to induce you to read the book, you'll get to read the passage which gave me my screen name in context, instead of just a quote. ;)
Just for the fun of it, here's a link to a Tam Lin site
I'm not using the "teens" category for this book, as it's one of the most complex, intelligent books I've ever read, and I'd hate anyone not to give it a second look, thinking it's "just for kids". The story is loosely based on the folk-ballad Tam Lin, along with contributions from Thomas the Rhymer, the Odyssey (edited 9/04 to add: I just finished writing an essay on the Odyssey and Fire and Hemlock, and sticking to the word limit nearly killed me!), the story of Cupid and Psyche, and just about every other fairy tale and myth known to man, woman and child. And a few other bits and bobs! The references are used so creatively and woven together so skilfully though, that missing any number still leaves you with a great story.
Read it, unless you can't stand any degree of complexity in a book, in which case you should probably look elsewhere. I'll be happy to help out with the ending if needed. If all this isn't enough to induce you to read the book, you'll get to read the passage which gave me my screen name in context, instead of just a quote. ;)
Just for the fun of it, here's a link to a Tam Lin site
Ray is up and going. Hopefully it'll keep going indefinitely. PM me to be added, saying where you are and mailing preferences. This one is really travelling the globe, so if you can't mail internationally I won't be able to guarantee a spot, but will try. (Book weighs just under 250 g - about 1/2 pound - with small mailing envelope)
Usual proceedure for rays - when you get the book, please make a journal entry, and make another when you're sending it on. A month seems to be generally accepted as being a reasonable reading time - but things do happen! If you know that you'll be much longer, please let other people know, so nobody thinks the book has disappeared into a black hole. Or PM me for a rearrangement to the mailing order. Finally, please don't rearrange the order of the list without contacting me.
*****************
Gyd (Spain)
Olifant (Netherlands)
Mytilusgirl (UK)
Auglaise (UK)
Koalabare (UK)
Boucli (France)
Loeweneckerchen (Germany)
MollyGrue (US)
Kyrissaean (US)
aset01 (France)
nyassa (UK)
Niksu (Finland)
Bluestar741 (US)
Erna (Netherlands)
Elmindreda (Hungary)
Usual proceedure for rays - when you get the book, please make a journal entry, and make another when you're sending it on. A month seems to be generally accepted as being a reasonable reading time - but things do happen! If you know that you'll be much longer, please let other people know, so nobody thinks the book has disappeared into a black hole. Or PM me for a rearrangement to the mailing order. Finally, please don't rearrange the order of the list without contacting me.
*****************
Gyd (Spain)
Olifant (Netherlands)
Mytilusgirl (UK)
Auglaise (UK)
Koalabare (UK)
Boucli (France)
Loeweneckerchen (Germany)
MollyGrue (US)
Kyrissaean (US)
aset01 (France)
nyassa (UK)
Niksu (Finland)
Bluestar741 (US)
Erna (Netherlands)
Elmindreda (Hungary)
Fire & Hemlock has arrived this morning. Starting my reading tonight.Thanks Hero, for the book and the nice postcard - I like doors! =)
( I was the one who get lost reading 'Hexwood'... I'll ask you if I need help with the ending then...=P)
Ok, I've just finished the book and already have Olifant's address but I think I'm going to reread the last few chapters, just in case I understand something =).
Many thanks Hero ( BC one!) for Tam Lin's link, it's been a big help!
To be continued tomorrow...
Many thanks Hero ( BC one!) for Tam Lin's link, it's been a big help!
To be continued tomorrow...
The day after I wrote my journal entry my computer crashed down (and I work with it) so it's been a really difficult week. I hope it's nothing to do with the Queen of faeries...
The book was mailed to Olifant on Thursday 28 but I couldn't reread the final chapter. So Hero, what I'm missing is... how Hero gets to the conclusion that she and Tom have to pretend what they have to pretend in order to free themselves from the Queen of faeries? Is it somehing she said? (I'll erase this question later, just in case I'm giving out some clues).
Thanks in advance :)
The book was mailed to Olifant on Thursday 28 but I couldn't reread the final chapter. So Hero, what I'm missing is... how Hero gets to the conclusion that she and Tom have to pretend what they have to pretend in order to free themselves from the Queen of faeries? Is it somehing she said? (I'll erase this question later, just in case I'm giving out some clues).
Thanks in advance :)
Safely arrived in The Netherlands. Thanks for the beautiful bookmark Gyd!
‘It’s all true’, she said. ‘Except that it isn’t’.
‘You don’t like fairy stories. Have you read them?’ said Mr. Lynn. Polly was forced to shake her head. ‘Please read them,’ said Mr Lynn. ‘Only thin, weak thinkers despise fairy stories. Each one has a true, strange fact hidden in it, you know, which you can find if you look.’
Definitely a book I like! Read it in one stretch. Even sniggered at some parts: the horse - car driving of Mr Lynn, the typed letters by Polly and Mr Lynn, the play at school where Nina (King Herod) and Polly (the youngest King) do two things at a time.
At first I thought the book was a nice way of telling a story about a girl growing up. A girl in between fighting parents (divorce). A girl looking for love and friendship. She tries to cope by pretending to be someone else, by making up imaginary friends. In doing so she gets mixed up.
But the book turns out to be much more! And that is why I like it so much. It keeps me thinking about it. So now I want to read the ballad of Tam Lin and Thomas the Rhymer. Then some of the books mentioned in Fire and Hemlock, like ‘The Golden Bough’ and ‘The Oxford book of Ballads’. And then reread this book again.
Thanks Hero for introducing me to Diane Wynne Jones! Book is off to Mytilusgirl.
It’s like those vases. Now-here and Nowhere
edit 1: the film ‘Eternal Sunshine (on a spotless mind)’ just entered my mind. Also about erasing memories.
edit 2: other work Deep Secret and
edit 3: Conrad's Fate
‘You don’t like fairy stories. Have you read them?’ said Mr. Lynn. Polly was forced to shake her head. ‘Please read them,’ said Mr Lynn. ‘Only thin, weak thinkers despise fairy stories. Each one has a true, strange fact hidden in it, you know, which you can find if you look.’
Definitely a book I like! Read it in one stretch. Even sniggered at some parts: the horse - car driving of Mr Lynn, the typed letters by Polly and Mr Lynn, the play at school where Nina (King Herod) and Polly (the youngest King) do two things at a time.
At first I thought the book was a nice way of telling a story about a girl growing up. A girl in between fighting parents (divorce). A girl looking for love and friendship. She tries to cope by pretending to be someone else, by making up imaginary friends. In doing so she gets mixed up.
But the book turns out to be much more! And that is why I like it so much. It keeps me thinking about it. So now I want to read the ballad of Tam Lin and Thomas the Rhymer. Then some of the books mentioned in Fire and Hemlock, like ‘The Golden Bough’ and ‘The Oxford book of Ballads’. And then reread this book again.
Thanks Hero for introducing me to Diane Wynne Jones! Book is off to Mytilusgirl.
It’s like those vases. Now-here and Nowhere
edit 1: the film ‘Eternal Sunshine (on a spotless mind)’ just entered my mind. Also about erasing memories.
edit 2: other work Deep Secret and
edit 3: Conrad's Fate
Arrived today. I'll be starting this tonight.
Thank you!
Thank you!
What a super book! As ever Jones delivers. Query, where on *earth* does Jones pull her inspiration and stories from?!
Fire and Hemlock was posted today to Auglaise.
Thank you *so* much Hero for including me in this ray!
Fire and Hemlock was posted today to Auglaise.
Thank you *so* much Hero for including me in this ray!
Journal Entry 10 by Auglaise from -- Somewhere in London 🤷♀️ , Greater London United Kingdom on Friday, November 26, 2004
Received today. Thank you!
Journal Entry 11 by Auglaise from -- Somewhere in London 🤷♀️ , Greater London United Kingdom on Saturday, January 8, 2005
I really enjoyed this book, and was completely surprised by the ending! I'm definately planning to read more by Wynne-Jones. I'm sorry for keeping this ring so long, I went on holiday and totally forgot to bring it with me to ship. I'll pass it on as soon as I'm able!
Thanks for sending it on - next in line once I've finished the current book.
I really enjoyed this, but the ending made my head spin a little!
Thank you Hero for adding the link to the Tam Lin site - things are a little clearer for it, and I think I'll be getting hold of my own copy of this to re-read and get my head round the ending. By the way, I got the Cupid and Psyche references, as well as the Golden Bough, but I'm missing the links to the Odyssey, unless I'm being really dense! Go on, gissa clue! (Please?)
Anyway, this book reminds me why I like Diana Wynne Jones so much. Polly's growing up is beautifully told - DWJ brilliantly captures the child's and adolescent's views of the world, and Polly's homelife, stuck between selfish, neglectful parents is heartrending stuff.
Her relationship with Tom is also carefully and subtley told, and again, I'll have to reread at some point to get the little twists and turns. The ending did leave me a bit deflated, and I'm still unsure as to what Tom's real motive was - affection or desperation - some more explanation would have been good, as I was floundering a bit!
For all that, though, very good!
Thanks again to Hero for organising this ray, and on to Boucli once I have the address.
Thank you Hero for adding the link to the Tam Lin site - things are a little clearer for it, and I think I'll be getting hold of my own copy of this to re-read and get my head round the ending. By the way, I got the Cupid and Psyche references, as well as the Golden Bough, but I'm missing the links to the Odyssey, unless I'm being really dense! Go on, gissa clue! (Please?)
Anyway, this book reminds me why I like Diana Wynne Jones so much. Polly's growing up is beautifully told - DWJ brilliantly captures the child's and adolescent's views of the world, and Polly's homelife, stuck between selfish, neglectful parents is heartrending stuff.
Her relationship with Tom is also carefully and subtley told, and again, I'll have to reread at some point to get the little twists and turns. The ending did leave me a bit deflated, and I'm still unsure as to what Tom's real motive was - affection or desperation - some more explanation would have been good, as I was floundering a bit!
For all that, though, very good!
Thanks again to Hero for organising this ray, and on to Boucli once I have the address.
Since you asked so nicely... ;) I'll put the Odyssey stuff and my feelings about the ending in white, but first will freely admit I'd never have got the use of the Odyssey without DWJ's essay on the writing of F&H! Never. On the question of Tom, I differ slightly from her, no matter how outrageous that might seem (she does say she wants to get readers to think for themselves, after all!).
Right, in the book, the association of Tom (primarily) with Odysseus begins with the story he makes up of himself as Mr Piper fighting the giant in the supermarket. You have to look carefully, but there is a subtle presentation of the giant as one-eyed. In terms of structure though, DWJ wrote that she started the book in the 'present' and then had Polly tell the story through flash-back because of the fact that Odysseus is first seen in his 'present', and tells his story similarly. She said Odysseus had just disentangled himself from Calypso by telling his story, when in fact it happens through the intervention of the gods! Laurel is Calypso in this (also Circe, though DWJ has confused the two a bit), and Tom has escaped her supernatural and possessive clutches (i.e. in getting divorced) before the start of the book.
There's nothing so simple as just having Tom play the role of Odysseus though - he and Polly share it, as Polly's is the heroic act of memory that DWJ thought Odysseus performed in escaping from Calypso. Polly also plays the role of Telemachos, in her trainee-hero stage, and to a lesser extent, Penelope waiting patiently at home while Ody/Tom travels the world.
I had a lot of fun writing the essay (except for the frustration in having to leave things out because of the word limit), but those are the main Odyssian elements you can see in the book.
With regards the ending, I certainly feel that Tom truly does love Polly, and always had, for all he also needed her holding on-Janet role. DWJ said that - just as Odysseus came home to a 'personal relationship' - she wanted to indicate that such a relationship was possible between Polly and Tom. Where I disagree with her a bit is her saying that Tom had depended on Polly too much over the years, while I think that their friendship over the years was far more mutual than that might suggest - Polly certainly claims Tom, but he also provides as much support as he can without endangering her. IMHO!
Think that's enough for the moment anyway - hope it helps or at least is of interest!
Right, in the book, the association of Tom (primarily) with Odysseus begins with the story he makes up of himself as Mr Piper fighting the giant in the supermarket. You have to look carefully, but there is a subtle presentation of the giant as one-eyed. In terms of structure though, DWJ wrote that she started the book in the 'present' and then had Polly tell the story through flash-back because of the fact that Odysseus is first seen in his 'present', and tells his story similarly. She said Odysseus had just disentangled himself from Calypso by telling his story, when in fact it happens through the intervention of the gods! Laurel is Calypso in this (also Circe, though DWJ has confused the two a bit), and Tom has escaped her supernatural and possessive clutches (i.e. in getting divorced) before the start of the book.
There's nothing so simple as just having Tom play the role of Odysseus though - he and Polly share it, as Polly's is the heroic act of memory that DWJ thought Odysseus performed in escaping from Calypso. Polly also plays the role of Telemachos, in her trainee-hero stage, and to a lesser extent, Penelope waiting patiently at home while Ody/Tom travels the world.
I had a lot of fun writing the essay (except for the frustration in having to leave things out because of the word limit), but those are the main Odyssian elements you can see in the book.
With regards the ending, I certainly feel that Tom truly does love Polly, and always had, for all he also needed her holding on-Janet role. DWJ said that - just as Odysseus came home to a 'personal relationship' - she wanted to indicate that such a relationship was possible between Polly and Tom. Where I disagree with her a bit is her saying that Tom had depended on Polly too much over the years, while I think that their friendship over the years was far more mutual than that might suggest - Polly certainly claims Tom, but he also provides as much support as he can without endangering her. IMHO!
Think that's enough for the moment anyway - hope it helps or at least is of interest!
Ace! Hero, you're a hero! I was sort of getting the journeying round the world bits, and was veering in the direction of Calypso/ Circe, but would never have got the rest!
2nd Feb - Posted to Boucli
2nd Feb - Posted to Boucli
Just received, thanks a lot, Koalabare (and for the postcard too, I love JMW Turner !!)
Thanks for the ring, Hero. It will be my 2nd DWJ book, thanks to you !
Just a book to finish before this one...
Thanks for the ring, Hero. It will be my 2nd DWJ book, thanks to you !
Just a book to finish before this one...
This book shall definitely not be restricted to Teens, there's so much in it (and so much hidden, thanks Hero for your insights about what's hidden there !)...
I've really enjoyed it very much...Thanks again, Hero.
the book has left yesterday for Germany...
I've really enjoyed it very much...Thanks again, Hero.
the book has left yesterday for Germany...
Journal Entry 18 by Loeweneckerchen from Böblingen, Baden-Württemberg Germany on Sunday, March 6, 2005
Arrived this week. Thanks for sending it and for the lovely postcard, too!
05/06
Well, I admit, I'm as confused about the ending as some of the readers before me. I liked the writing style of the book, it kept you going. About two-thirds through the book I was thinking, "So it's a well written teen book, but nothing I will remember for long", but then the speed picked up and it got really exciting, I read the last third in one sitting last night. But the more exiting and faster the story got, the more mysterious it got, too. There were hints and short sentences about why that happend or why Hero had to do this, but I'm sorry to say, I didn't understand a lot about the ending. Why did helping Tom bring him closer to death? Was Leslie saved in the end, too, and why? And what was the purpose of the "Fire and Hemlock" picture in the whole story? Had Laurel gotten at Tom through that picture? I would have liked a bit more explanations at the end of the book, but maybe it's because I'm no teen anymore or my imagination is lacking ... ;-)
05/06
Well, I admit, I'm as confused about the ending as some of the readers before me. I liked the writing style of the book, it kept you going. About two-thirds through the book I was thinking, "So it's a well written teen book, but nothing I will remember for long", but then the speed picked up and it got really exciting, I read the last third in one sitting last night. But the more exiting and faster the story got, the more mysterious it got, too. There were hints and short sentences about why that happend or why Hero had to do this, but I'm sorry to say, I didn't understand a lot about the ending. Why did helping Tom bring him closer to death? Was Leslie saved in the end, too, and why? And what was the purpose of the "Fire and Hemlock" picture in the whole story? Had Laurel gotten at Tom through that picture? I would have liked a bit more explanations at the end of the book, but maybe it's because I'm no teen anymore or my imagination is lacking ... ;-)
Journal Entry 19 by Loeweneckerchen from Böblingen, Baden-Württemberg Germany on Saturday, May 7, 2005
Since today it's on its way to the US.
I have a couple of rings ahead of this, but I should get to it soon! I am really looking forward to this one. :)
I thought that this started a bit slow, but when it did get going it was very involving. :)
Loved it!
Loved it!
Journal Entry 22 by MollyGrue at In The Mail in Bookring, A Bookring -- Controlled Releases on Saturday, June 11, 2005
Released 18 yrs ago (6/11/2005 UTC) at In The Mail in Bookring, A Bookring -- Controlled Releases
WILD RELEASE NOTES:
RELEASE NOTES:
Sent to Kyrissean. Happy reading!
DC# 03022940000169565776
Sent to Kyrissean. Happy reading!
DC# 03022940000169565776
Arrived safe and sound today! This has been recommended to me by a couple people, so I have high hopes.
MollyGrue mailed it along with another book from a relay exchange, which by total coincidence is called "Tam Lin" by Pamela Dean. I'm ready to face the fairies!
MollyGrue mailed it along with another book from a relay exchange, which by total coincidence is called "Tam Lin" by Pamela Dean. I'm ready to face the fairies!
Oh gosh, where to begin...
This was rather hard for me to get into at first. I'd pick it up, read a little, and then put it down. The story seemed to ramble on, skimming a time line but staying fairly light on plot up until about page 200 or so. That's when things started to get really interesting. Then I just sat down and read until through to the end!
I really love how DWJ interwove all the fairy tale references in this story -- and it doesn't hurt that I've always loved the stories of Tam Lin and Thomas the Rhymer in particular! What an imagination it must have taken to come up with all this! It was great fun picking out the references to things as the story progressed, although the Odysseus connection would have gone right past me if it hadn't been pointed out here - it's plain as day now, though. I saw the ending with Tom and Polly coming the whole time, except I don't really understand the part about Polly having to loose in order to win (and I see I'm not alone in that!). Does Sebastian's character have an origin in fairy tales or myth somewhere? He's one of the only ones I'm not really placing at all... The last few pages are clear and then they aren't. If I look very closely, they don't quite make sense, but if I stand back and let the edges blur a bit, everything looks just peachy.
I've been having a lot of fun following the names in this in particular. I was wondering if Polly was somehow connected to the names of Janet or Elspeth (Elspeth is usually the name I've seen for the girl in Thomas the Rhymer), but so far the only connections I've come up with are pretty darn vague... Tom/Thomas means "twin" though -- that one's kind of fun for someone who lives in two realms at once! And of course, Tom sort of had a twin in Mr. Piper in this story! There must be a reason for naming both Laurel and Ivy after leafy plants... One thinks everyone is stealing her happiness, and the other is stealing other people's happiness and more, and Ivy was attracted to the son of someone lost to faerie.... But I feel like I'm missing something else there. Leroy was pretty obvious, but Reginald also means "king." The alternate names of the Dumas Quartet sound like something out of Tolkien....
But enough with my babbling! Overall, I very much enjoyed this book! It's reminded me of the first time I saw the movie "The Sixth Sense" back before I knew the catch. I spent most of the story just sort of wondering when we'd get to the point, and then once we did I wanted to go back and look at everything again in light of everything that came out in the end! Oh, and I completely agree that this is much too complicated to be a young adult book! Not that there's any reason teens couldn't read it, but it just gains so much from knowing the myths and tales behind the story!
This was rather hard for me to get into at first. I'd pick it up, read a little, and then put it down. The story seemed to ramble on, skimming a time line but staying fairly light on plot up until about page 200 or so. That's when things started to get really interesting. Then I just sat down and read until through to the end!
I really love how DWJ interwove all the fairy tale references in this story -- and it doesn't hurt that I've always loved the stories of Tam Lin and Thomas the Rhymer in particular! What an imagination it must have taken to come up with all this! It was great fun picking out the references to things as the story progressed, although the Odysseus connection would have gone right past me if it hadn't been pointed out here - it's plain as day now, though. I saw the ending with Tom and Polly coming the whole time, except I don't really understand the part about Polly having to loose in order to win (and I see I'm not alone in that!). Does Sebastian's character have an origin in fairy tales or myth somewhere? He's one of the only ones I'm not really placing at all... The last few pages are clear and then they aren't. If I look very closely, they don't quite make sense, but if I stand back and let the edges blur a bit, everything looks just peachy.
I've been having a lot of fun following the names in this in particular. I was wondering if Polly was somehow connected to the names of Janet or Elspeth (Elspeth is usually the name I've seen for the girl in Thomas the Rhymer), but so far the only connections I've come up with are pretty darn vague... Tom/Thomas means "twin" though -- that one's kind of fun for someone who lives in two realms at once! And of course, Tom sort of had a twin in Mr. Piper in this story! There must be a reason for naming both Laurel and Ivy after leafy plants... One thinks everyone is stealing her happiness, and the other is stealing other people's happiness and more, and Ivy was attracted to the son of someone lost to faerie.... But I feel like I'm missing something else there. Leroy was pretty obvious, but Reginald also means "king." The alternate names of the Dumas Quartet sound like something out of Tolkien....
But enough with my babbling! Overall, I very much enjoyed this book! It's reminded me of the first time I saw the movie "The Sixth Sense" back before I knew the catch. I spent most of the story just sort of wondering when we'd get to the point, and then once we did I wanted to go back and look at everything again in light of everything that came out in the end! Oh, and I completely agree that this is much too complicated to be a young adult book! Not that there's any reason teens couldn't read it, but it just gains so much from knowing the myths and tales behind the story!
The person after me has asked to be skipped, so I sent this off to nyassa today. Thanks so much for including me in this ring! Happy reading, everyone!
I could have sworn I did a journal entry when this book arrived, because I haven't had many books by post recently. So I don't know what happened there!
Anyway, obviously the book arrived safely on Friday (three days ago) and I have finished it already. I just could not put it down. I really loved it and I am now going to peruse the Tam Lin site. It will be sent off to Niksu tomorrow.
Thanks once again Hero for including me in this ray.
Anyway, obviously the book arrived safely on Friday (three days ago) and I have finished it already. I just could not put it down. I really loved it and I am now going to peruse the Tam Lin site. It will be sent off to Niksu tomorrow.
Thanks once again Hero for including me in this ray.
The book came today. Thanks nyassa! I'll try to read this during the weekend.
And read it as I promised. I must agree, the ending was confusing. This book definitely needs re-reading. And not only need, I also want to.
I have tried to read this in Finnish but it's not the same. I gave up then after somewhat 20 pages. The words now here, nowhere etc. just doesn't translate into finnish as they are ment in English. In english you can twist and turn the words and got new meanings but it doesn't work that way when reading in Finnish.
So I'm really glad I got chance to read this finally. Thanks to Hero! Now I'm going to read carefully those previous journal entrys and try to understand this a bit more.
I have PM'd Bluestar741 and she has asked to be skipped. Now waiting to receive Ernas address so I can send the book to her.
***EDIT 2.10 PM'd again.
***EDIT 12.10 Mailed today.
I have tried to read this in Finnish but it's not the same. I gave up then after somewhat 20 pages. The words now here, nowhere etc. just doesn't translate into finnish as they are ment in English. In english you can twist and turn the words and got new meanings but it doesn't work that way when reading in Finnish.
So I'm really glad I got chance to read this finally. Thanks to Hero! Now I'm going to read carefully those previous journal entrys and try to understand this a bit more.
I have PM'd Bluestar741 and she has asked to be skipped. Now waiting to receive Ernas address so I can send the book to her.
***EDIT 2.10 PM'd again.
***EDIT 12.10 Mailed today.
